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Sean Morgan 00:00
I'm Sean Morgan and I'm asking the hard questions about alternative topics like Q anon and Coronavirus. Get the free ebook at Q anon faq.com. Okay, I'm here with Charles Eisenstein. Charles, I've been a big fan of your writing for a long time we're from the same hometown in Pennsylvania. And I really love sacred economics. Just the way that you helped people envision in a very balanced way how humanity could look at economics and and that type of kind of how that issue of economics and money is at the center of the the ego and the interplay, interpersonal journey, as well as the society journey that we're going through, and the choices are making. So I just wanted to say that first of all, I really love that that book, and that if you could just do a quick intro of who you are and Maybe that recurring theme that you touched on in that book and all your other books of the new story in the old story. All right.
Charles Eisenstein 01:09
Okay, yeah, I'm, I mean, I'm a writer, basically. And then I began to do a lot of public speaking as well. And now I've kind of well, until COVID, I was doing more public speaking, than anything else. Now, actually, I'm doing. I just am doing a lot of public speaking because I'm doing it on podcasts and things like that. So the everything that I speak and write about is basically an application of a conceptual tool that I that I use to understand the world. And it's not only a conceptual tool, it's also become an embodied tool, but basically Understanding that we are in a time of transition from an old story of separation into a new story of inter connection, interdependency, inter being, where we're not understanding ourselves as separate individuals in a world of other. And so my work is basically It examines how our current civilization is built on the story of separation. how that story generates crises, that intensify with time, offering humanity, a initiation or a birthing into a new story. And it's really an ancient story, not really a new story, but for civilization, it would be new. And then I apply that lens to different topics like you mentioned economics. So how does the existing money system embody a story of separation and propel a story of separation, putting us into competition with each other into a world of scarcity necessitating endless growth. That's another part of the old story is is the conquest of nature separation from nature. And, yeah, apply to medicine or education or politics or technology, science, spirituality. And just identify what unifies all of the crises that face us today. So that's the that's the subject. You asked me to say that and then it makes it seem like this, this really abstract thing
Sean Morgan 03:48
you mentioned embodied. So how do you think that that can get kind of get grounded a little bit more?
Charles Eisenstein 03:53
Yeah, well, I mean, these stories, these narratives, I mean, these are desert even say mythologies. These aren't just like some idea you get in your head. They're part of a state of being. They are attracted to someone who has had a certain experience of life. Like, for example, if you've grown up in a market economy, or you've been subjected to schooling that is at Foster's competition. And if you've grown up in a modern environment where you don't really know, the people around you very well, in your neighborhood, you don't know. You look outside and you see a tree you don't even maybe know the trees name or certainly what medicine its roots are used for. If you've grown up that way, then then the extent then the story of you being a separate individual, in a world of competitors, makes a lot of sense. Sure. And that experience variants have been cut off. It's not just an idea, but it's an experience of alienation. So that that's the that's one aspect of the embodied part of the stories.
Sean Morgan 05:12
Yes, I guess in the eastern lens that would be kind of like living in the illusion of my or whatever. But let's talk about the challenge and the conflict that's going on for humanity right now. Because you wrote an article, something about the coronation related to Coronavirus. And then you had a follow up, I think probably, I'm guessing as a reaction to other people's reactions. And usually this is the way it is when you talk about something that's interesting. You'll have one side that thinks you've gone too far and other side thinks you haven't gone far enough. And so can you tell me about what the coronation article is about? And I know that's hard to summarize, because it was a monster of an essay. But then how how people reacted to it.
Charles Eisenstein 06:04
Yeah. As you know, we're living in a very polarized time. Where where any news? This is what I'm seeing, like any news that comes up about Coronavirus if it supports the narrative that, that a certain group of people like, then they will easily embrace that. And if it does not support it, they'll just attack it, attack the source attack the platform that that puts it up, you know, attack the credentials of the, of the scientists who brought out the study. I mean, it's just it's vicious out there. So in that situation, if you put something out that doesn't fit either side's narrative then Both sides will think you're on the other side. So that's it's been really odd. Like I'm, I'm a lifelong leftist. And I put this article out that might lead one to question many aspects of the official version of the pandemic that we are offered by the health authorities in the political authorities. So that all of a sudden, I'm a right wing conspiracy theorist. And I'm lecturing to them, right. Yeah. And I'm like, hold on when, Since when is questioning authority right wing thought that was supposed to
Sean Morgan 07:36
question and then your recent article, the conspiracy myth, really specifically addresses that accusation. And you talk about some specific things in the history of the United States of how the CIA has infiltrated leftist groups and activist groups and victimized inner city, communities and things like that, to prove that Point.
Charles Eisenstein 08:01
Yeah, I mean, usually it's it's the left that suffers from government conspiracies. I mean, from iran contra, and its relation to running drugs into the inner cities to cointelpro which infiltrate the civil rights movement and stirred up trouble. Same thing to the environmental movement. The weapons of mass destruction hoax. I mean, there's been a lot of actual conspiracies that are that are well documented, and not even that controversy, you know, so all of a sudden now it's those who believe themselves to be on the left, that are in joining us to trust the CDC to trust Big Pharma, to trust the political establishment, to trust the intelligence agencies. I mean, this this is it's it's a it's like left and right have been They haven't actually flipped that they've like just both kind of dissolved. And in the group that's left there there there is this emerging populism I think that defies left right categories.
Sean Morgan 09:18
And that sounds like it would relate to your work and talking about that process of conflict and transformation right that the probably the left and right paradigms and polarities were not healthy or serving anyone and so now there's like a storming and forming type of thing that's going on to redefine reality for everyone.
Charles Eisenstein 09:39
Yeah, they left and right as we have known them were a product of their times and the times are changing environment is changing, although I still think that that certain ways of analyzing society are still valid.
Sean Morgan 09:59
Still, you Use the term I've been a lifelong leftist. And so do you think that now that's not even a relevant term to use anymore for yourself? Or are you just gonna say, Hey, we
Charles Eisenstein 10:08
know, what does it mean? What does it mean to be a leftist? It's not like a feature of objective reality, right it is, that word only has any meaning in relation to various social discourses. So, right. Like the left means those who say that they are on the left. I still and that, you know, there are traditions that have say, Marxist analysis, for example, the critique of colonialism, the understanding of how the economic system generates inequality and oppression by culturalism multiculturalism Yeah. Right. The critique of have what is now called white supremacy but but is that that's actually like an outgrowth of a of the post colonial narrative. I don't know like this. This is getting super, like, theoretically political. I don't know if we want to go there. Now I could go, okay, but as well, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Sean Morgan 11:17
it's okay. You know, the the response to the coronation article, kind of had you do a follow up article called the conspiracy myth. And in that, you talked about how there are real conspiracies, which we already mentioned a couple of real ones. And that even the ones that may not be 100%, verified, or maybe they're just plain, not objectively true. They still have value in the form of a myth to kind of understand things. So can you explain that concept?
Charles Eisenstein 11:49
Yeah. So in the article, I say What say? Yeah, they're definitely conspiracies. But what about the idea that conspiracy explains the world That society is in the grips of an evil cabal of you know 13 bloodline families etc etc I don't know how familiar you are with these but crazy yeah so there's like a whole universe of like it's an extremely elaborate narrative historically narrative yeah it's it's, it's, it goes into you know it could be that that reptilian reptilian extraterrestrials are involved in it demonic entities the occult, like it's a whole thing that is what I name is a myth, which doesn't mean that it is a fantasy or a delusion. It doesn't mean that it's literally true, of course. But it doesn't mean that it's not true either. What I'm saying is that it is a vehicle for truth. It gives narrative form to unconscious truths that we may not otherwise recognize. And there are other forms you could give to those to those truths. So one of the truths being the idea that that an unfriendly power is in charge of the world and in human power is in charge of the world. Now, the conspiracy myth says yes, and that inhuman power is this, you know, 13 evil bloodlines or something, right. Another myth might say, this in human power is capitalism. Yeah. patriarchy. That is that is pulling our egos. Yeah. Right. We're, I would say it's the story of separation. Right. So another truth that that rides on this myth is that those who seem that they have power are not actually as powerful as we think that They're they are highly constrained in what they can do. Could it so it could be because they're receiving their orders from this nefarious hidden group. But it could be because the systems themselves conspire to limit. It's like, if you're save the leader of a country, and you say enough of austerity, you know, I'm gonna pay people their pensions and protect our natural resources. Well, it's not necessarily that that your case officer from the paraphilia Elite is going to call you up and say, Sorry, you can't do that. What happens if you try to do that is that the bond market revolts capital flees the country your currency crashes, like that you get punished without any one person trying to punish you because there
Sean Morgan 14:59
are systems idle norms and like infrastructure to our institutions that contribute to these conspiracies happening without conspirators. Right. And you talked about some examples of that of some scientists who just chose without any kind of direction from others to do certain things as opposed to others that ended up looking like conspiracy even though it wasn't.
Charles Eisenstein 15:23
Yeah, this happens all the time in science, you know, like, like, an example would be the decades long idea, the paradigm that heart disease is caused by dietary cholesterol that an entire research industry grew up around that. And it turns out it was not true. But for decades, it looked like it was true. If and it kind of perpetuated itself. If you wanted to get published if you wanted funding. If you want an academic promotion. You know, you would contribute to that narrative. And if you came up with something that contradicted that your research would it would receive intense scrutiny. And you'd have to you know, fight the the intellectual culture to even get that published. So, it so the system conspired Now there were financial interests involved. The sugar industry, for example. But I don't think that that that they conspired to create this entire paradigm. There might have been opportunistically participating in it. So that's how I think usually conspiracies work. But not always. Yeah, sometimes
Sean Morgan 16:48
there actually is direct coordination or a hierarchy involved. A really important documentary this year has been out of shadows, where they point out From the birth of media in the United States that there have been CIA and other governmental entities actually embedded within those institutions in Hollywood in the press. We've had project Mockingbird in the 70s. And some have said that that has never stopped that there are still covert agents of the CIA embedded in the various press organizations. Yeah, certainly now we see a consolidation of corporate media. You have people like Jeff Bezos, who own the Washington Post, you know, and arguably the most important political newspaper in the country is controlled by a billionaire, who we've all buy our products from during the pandemic. So there's just it's truth is stranger than fiction when you look at that situation, and so people who are looking at that situation and wondering, hey, is the Washington Post's getting their talking points directly from an oligarch?
Charles Eisenstein 18:09
Right or indirectly from an oligarch? Right, you know, maybe it's just that you kind of know like, we are socially attuned to get along with our tribe to curry favor with the powerful to display the correct opinions that are approved of by our in groups. You know, we're really sensitive to what's the right thing to say, what's the right behavior to display? So you, you know, work at the Washington Post or the New York Times like you tune into that, you know, and you know, what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable. There's a whole culture that Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates you know our participants in as well. They themselves I believe I think I don't know much about Jeff Bezos. But I know quite a bit about Bill Gates, you know, like he, as far as I can tell, he fully believes in the myth that technology is going to save the world. Technology is going to make the world a better place. He has a crusading belief in that. So when he embraces and promotes problematic technologies that are causing harm in the world, that doesn't mean that he is a nefarious evil to her, that he's wicked be trying to harm people for his own greed. He, I think that he's enamored of this myth. And so people, he's going to surround himself with people who are enamored of this myth as well. They're going to come to him, he's going to resonate with them. He's going to fund organizations that believe that and so a conspiracy is thereby created, of which he himself is a tool. It's as if like this being recruits human beings to create itself. And that makes it a lot better.
Sean Morgan 20:12
And one of the deepest part of that essay was about how there's a co creation that occurs between our beliefs and reality. In co construction, it was kind of hard to to word that just now maybe you could clarify it.
Charles Eisenstein 20:27
Yeah. You know, you know, one of the one of the critiques of the coronation was that, um, you know, I'm a relativist, that I'm like, yeah, this narrative can be true, that narrative can be true. But come on, Charles, there's an objective truth out there, isn't there. I don't think matters are that simple. Oh, and so they thought that I must be new agey and saying that our beliefs create our reality. It's not that simple, either. It's not that our beliefs create our reality. It's that belief in reality create each other. And that there's an intimate connection between the two. There's an intimate connection between the story we tell the world and the way that the world appears to us. Sometimes the world surprises us and doesn't fit into our stories. Like, and and we run across, we encounter situations that violently contradict our beliefs. And it's it can be devastating, like that happens. So any metaphysics that you're advancing, has to explain those things, too. So what but what I can say is that, that the stories I mean, just in a very mundane way, the story that we call money has certainly impacted the physical world. Money is a belief, it is an agreement, nothing more. Those those hundred dollar bills, you know, those, those account statements that you get electronically Those are those are symbols, those are ultimately zeros and ones in computers. Yet our story about those things, has laid waste to vast areas of the planet and invigorated billions of people. So you can't say that our stories in our beliefs and our agreements don't change reality there, right? Yeah. And then and then you get into you can also so that's kind of a mundane example. But when you get into some of the fringes of of science, and those things that have been excluded from science, then you come across all kinds of phenomena that that point to, could be a mind body connection, it could be a mind world connection. Things are not as they seem or they are not as as we have been told. Which is one To the energies that feeds into conspiracy, it's that there's something they're not telling us something that that runs the world, that they're not telling us like something really important aspect of reality that's being hidden from us. That's not being recognized. I think that is an authentic intuition. And it can take the form of a conspiracy theory.
Sean Morgan 23:26
Right. Yes. So, to get to an important point of that essay, which is that or this whole discussion that there is going to be conflict that when when you have a belief system, and and there are people in power, who are perpetuating and then people who are subservient to them who are perpetuating it through these social norms, and then we're all trying to make each other feel comfortable. And yet there's this inherent, especially now, during this crisis, there's an inherent conflict, where there's a mainstream media narrative. That you got to wear the mask, you know, close down your business. You don't visit with your relatives, you don't visit with the old people, you don't touch the old people, you don't touch each other, that the children are social distancing. They're not playing with each other. And then there are the people who just feel and think that that's completely insane. And they react against it. But at the same time, they want to make their neighbors happy. They want to make their friends on Facebook happy. They don't want to offend anyone else. And so, but at the same time, there is that feeling that their sovereignty is being violated and they need to stand up and they need to fight against that. And so we see that with people covering up for other people, like for example, we're both familiar with State College, Pennsylvania, and there was a coach there who was kind of a part of this hierarchy of power and he he owned a charitable organization for children. And it turns out he He was just sexually molesting boys for years and people knew about it and they didn't do anything about it and they didn't say anything about it. And and the whole community just perpetuated this power structure. And so there's a conspiracy without anyone you know, from the top down saying, Hey, this is how it's gonna go. You actually had normal everyday people covering up pedophilia. So what this is one of the ways that I reacted in part, I know that that you are not like responsible for like standing up for all of humanity right now and their rights. But at the same time, I wondered if you were trying to keep people from criticizing you. You were trying to keep people in in that comfort zone. Like, don't worry, I'm not saying that Bill Gates is, you know, in charge of some kind of nefarious thing. vaccinate you with mandatory vaccines and right even though the governor of California saying we can't open up the state until we have mandatory vaccines, so there is a mandatory vaccine agenda, and it might affect us in real life, and if people who are writing about this subject don't actually show that that's real, and the threats to our sovereignty are real, that we won't stand up for it. And so we're all just keeping each other comfortable and you're subservient. Right? So
Charles Eisenstein 26:28
I'm really what the what both essays are doing, they're calling for critical thinking. I think that if people engage their critical thinking, examine their assumptions, look for look outside their own echo chamber and really give a listen to the best spokespeople for for opposite views. Then we will move closer and closer to the truth. So you If so how so that that's, I'm more interested in the truth than in being right. Or in crusading for what I believe is true. So I have my opinions on vaccines. I have my opinions on 5g. I have my opinions on glyphosate. I have my opinions on all of these things on, on whether masks work on whether lockdown was justified medically and epidemiologically. justified. I've got my opinions on those things. And I recognize them as opinions.
Sean Morgan 27:35
And they probably all make you right wing now.
Charles Eisenstein 27:39
Yeah, I mean, this is a whole new thing. I mean, it used to be the hippies, that were skeptical of pesticides and vaccines and wanted to homeschool their kids, you know, tune in, turn on, drop out. Like that was the hippies that was the left and who protested war. So it is quite, quite chaotic right now politically, anyway. So yeah, I have my opinions on these things. Some of them I'm quite certain about some of them I'm not so sure about like, I don't know, the mind of Bill Gates, really. I hesitate to say he wants this when he hasn't said that he wants it. But I do think that if people are truly open minded, they're going to come to a lot of the same conclusions I do. I just think that that's
Sean Morgan 28:36
so you might even be more effective by being less heavy handed.
Charles Eisenstein 28:40
Yeah, because if you assault somebody beliefs with a direct assault, taking your own studies, to duel with their studies, to try to overcome them with your superior evidence, and reasoning abilities. It doesn't work the If anyone's identity is associated with their beliefs, they will take that as a personal assault, they will feel violated and outraged. And they will go running to their protector, the pundit or the authority that articulates their beliefs, and they're going to, they're gonna go to them to make sense of Zack bush or Thomas Cowen, or you know, Christiane Northrup, they're not going to actually listen to those people. So what I'm saying is, is let's not be so sure that we're right here. Let's, let's take a look. Let's gather all of the data points.
Sean Morgan 29:46
But yeah, it can look very much like I'm afraid to take a stand. It can seem like that and I'm not saying it is. But at some point the rubber hits the road and you have to say either I am going to wear a mask or I'm not going to wear a mask. I am going to take a backseat I'm not going to take a vaccine, I am going to allow this in my community or I'm going to stand up and say what's right or wrong. Just an example, someone wrote to me today that they live in a town of 200 people in rural Colorado, and their child cannot go to the public park because it's closed down. And then they go to the like, they're 200 people, they all know each other. And then they go to the sheriff and they talk to the sheriff, hey, why is the park closed? And he says, Well, I'm getting this direction from the state. And then they just follow the command and all goes to these people who are really really far away, who really have nothing to do with their little town of 200 people and what, what those 200 people really want to do with their lives. And so I wrote back to them and I just said, Hey, you know, it sounds like your group of 200 people need to decide for yourself what to do in your own town. And that might involve civil disobedience. It might involve, you know, using the court system and fighting back or whatever. There are lots of different ways to go about it. But I can understand that your role as a writer isn't necessarily to crusade and everything but at the same time if we, if we stay so gentle with people who have differing beliefs that trample all over our rights, that that could be a slippery slope of passivity. Do you think about that?
Charles Eisenstein 31:17
No, I think it's true. I think that I'm looking at it as a kind of an ecosystem of dissent. where, like, sir in the in the conspiracy myth, I am linking to Zack Bush, Christiane Northrup, David Katz, Lissa Rankin can remember who else Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and, like if they weren't doing their work, I wouldn't be able to be doing this work.
Sean Morgan 31:55
Right. And different roles to play.
Charles Eisenstein 31:58
Yeah. I'm trying to Um, speak to those who are maybe? Like, I think, okay, so I'm trying to speak to a lot of people, um some of them are ones who have been unsure about things who maybe have like a doubt stirring? Who can be invited to look at these alternative perspectives? And then some of them might be people who are, you know, already fully on board with those things. And then I want them to question their reality too, because I think that the conspiracy myth is ultimately quite damaging and it's actually orthodox. It agrees with the basic solution template of find the bad thing and destroy it to make the world a better place. That is where the conventional response to COVID has come from. Right. When the war against bad spirit. This this virus same mentality as when the war on terrorism by killing the terrorists drugs or whatever when the war on drugs by locking up the drug dealers and penalizing those who use it, it's like this, this mentality of control and a lot of the conspiracy people are coming from a place of resisting totalitarian control. Yet on a psychological like on an on a mythic level, they themselves are validating control as the primary change technology and they're diagnosing the problem in terms that lend itself to other versions of control. So I'm what I want is for, like what is outside of that paradigm, what happens when you acknowledge the the possibility for conspiracies to self organize for conspiracy See what looks like conspiracy to be an emergent process, an emergent process? property of systems? Then where's the bad boy?
Sean Morgan 34:11
Yeah, well, there are. And that's where it gets kind of complex, because we already talked about how the reality and our beliefs co construct. So you actually do have bad actors who create bad institutions, which creates social norms. And then they all emergent Lee co creates ad infinitum. And, and so it's not saying that there aren't bad actors at the top of these hierarchies, right. You're not you're not saying yeah,
Charles Eisenstein 34:38
I'm not. There might very well be a world controlling conspiracy. And if we're going to investigate that, let's be clear on what is driving our investigation. Is Is it these coded truths that are coming out in the form of a story or is it the actual evidence, because what I see in the conspiracy world, which I'm You know, quite I wouldn't say like involved in it, but I monitor it, you know, I watch it. And not in a patronizing way, but when I see a lot of is, you know, they'll take an interview with Bill Gates, you know, they'll take one little clip and they'll amplify that. Because it fits their narrative. Yeah, solely, I see a lot of data filtration, data, cherry picking and dairy selection, just like the mainstream does, right? exclude anything that challenges the narrative. You know, what about Japan, which has approximately the same number of COVID cases and deaths as Rhode Island. Like, how do you fit that into your narrative? Okay, like they didn't even lock down. You know, if it's an inconvenient data point, you just ignore it. You know, it must have been this and you have some ad hoc explanation that doesn't, isn't really satisfying. I mean, Tony, it was pretty crowded. You know, it was given place in the world. Yeah, like, I mean, come on, like why?
Sean Morgan 36:08
Right, and something that people should be asking.
Charles Eisenstein 36:11
Yeah, there's a lot of questions that are not being asked because they disturb the narrative. And this isn't only, I mean, this is everywhere, all sides are doing this. So I have not found a narrative that satisfies me right now. And I've looked into everything. And I think that that willingness to not know that that's what allows us to move toward the truth.
Sean Morgan 36:44
So I agree that humility and that that pursuit of the truth and the willingness to try to jump out of the confirmation bias, look at the other opposite sources. And just keep an open mind for a while but at the same time, like you also said in the article, it doesn't mean you don't act on the internet. You have you don't have to get super passive just because you're being a relativist and, and everything. What about the billions of people in the world who read the Bible and the Quran, and the Jewish people, the Christian people, the Islamic people who are reading these books, and there is a story, it's an important story, perhaps the most important story about in the case of Judaism, which is the root of the other two religions I mentioned. There are 12 bloodlines. And Jesus is a part of one of those bloodlines. And it's a positive bloodline chosen by God, and that there is an opposite of that side of goodness of a force that may have their own little story of their own 13 bloodlines and they have their own religion, their own practices that involve This is all throughout the Bible. Of course, drinking blood You know, sacrificing babies and all of these things. So, this has been documented for thousands of years that there is this narrative of evil people who are evil people who have these practices. And so what do you have to say about that? Because you talked about the demiurge and Gnosticism and stuff, but it's not just them that believe in evil entity, right? Yeah, it's really Yeah. Go religions, right. Um, you can go,
Charles Eisenstein 38:29
you can go down this rabbit hole, and, you know, start finding evidence for a Luciferian cult that you can't prove that it rules the world. But, you know, there's a lot of people in positions of power that seem to be doing these kinds of things. And, somehow or other. This is another thing that's just not deeply looked at in Conventional media somehow or other human traffic ring, human, human trafficking rings are thriving. You can't do that without having some connections to political authorities. Yeah. So there's
Sean Morgan 39:20
state sponsored human trafficking.
Charles Eisenstein 39:23
Yeah. So So. Yeah, you know, it gets hard to pin it down.
Sean Morgan 39:33
Just like their state sponsored, you know, drug trafficking with Afghanistan and everything. Right.
Charles Eisenstein 39:38
Yeah. I mean, there's definitely some state sponsored, then, you know, you get into the issue of is this, like, what aspect of the state is doing this? Right? What? Because the state is not monolithic either. One thing though, that that I've noticed, and I mentioned this in the essay Is that I said that deep faith or deep paranoia tends to produce the results that confirm it, produce the experiences that confirm it. Right. I had a weird little thing happened once I was in a Uber basically getting driven to the airport was a ride service actually wasn't an Uber. And the guy was like a full on right wing conspiracy theorist, you know, he was telling me about how he had been on this getting recruited for Hillary Clinton's hit squad, you know, and like it was like, listening, you know. And then, like, at the peak of that, the red and blue lights flash and we get pulled over and Like the cop comes up and, and, and the driver is extremely polite like obsequious because he's ex military or whatever he you know, he's like, you know, he hands the cop his driver's license is this he is if he was serving tea to the Emperor, you know? And the cop basically says, Oh, yeah, you had like, one of your tail lights was flashing or something like that. It was like some minor little thing, you know. But it was just it was as if, like this other reality in which every conversation is monitored. And, you know, like, it this, like our cell phone was listening to our conversation, it alerted Big brother who then sent a cop to pull us over. Like, I could see how a paranoid mind could easily put these data points together. And it just seems so compelling that said, whether or Not conspiracy is the ruling power of the world. I do think that there's a lot we haven't been told about. Certainly the Kennedy assassination. I mean that you don't have to dig that deeply to,
Sean Morgan 42:17
or maybe Jeffrey Epstein and all the people who we thought commit suicide.
Charles Eisenstein 42:22
Right? I mean, there's there's there's a lot of stories that haven't been told the question. So when I when I, you know, apprehend these these Luciferian world cabal myths. I like to wield it as a lens and ask, what does that reality that that perceptual lens because that's what a myth does, it conditions our perceptions. It allows us to see things that are not visible without that lens. So I'm like, Okay, what can I see through this lens rather than asking, Is it provable or not? What can I see from this lens? And what can't I see? Like, what becomes irrelevant? That my heart tells me is actually important? What does it obliterate? And that doesn't mean that it is right or wrong, but it it, it, it can be useful. And then I also asked, Who do I become when I wear this lens? Because a State of Belief is a state of being the way that we perceive the world mirrors who we're being and and so, so trying on different mythological lenses on the world is also a path of self exploration. And I can say that
Sean Morgan 43:54
it's an intellectual practice, perhaps even a spiritual practice. Yeah,
Charles Eisenstein 43:57
I can say that. That there's Something that I that does not resonate with me, which is about on a deep level about conspiracy theories, which is the powerlessness that invites. Right. That does not resonate as spiritually true to me. Absolutely.
Sean Morgan 44:20
Yeah. I'm with you there. 100%. So I think there's some kind of synthesis occurring where people are able to recognize that there are people in power who don't have their best interests in mind, but that doesn't mean that we're powerless to do anything about it. And that those people who are working against us, just due to social norms, they're not our enemies. They're our brothers and sisters that we have to be, you know, compassionate with.
Charles Eisenstein 44:48
Yeah. Also. I don't think that we can really understand conspiracy theory This whole new world order of myth and hold on to objective reality. The mind so so the real mythology of our time that unites, as I was saying before unites the mainstream and conspiracy theories, generally, is the myth of separation. Part of that myth is an objective reality outside of ourselves from which we are separate. Therefore, we can perform scientific experiments that are repeatable, we can isolate variables, we can isolate the variable of the experimenter from the experiment. We can assume, though, that that actually is not possible with quite some mechanics and everything. Right, so that the mind of separation thinks that it's either true or false that You know, 13 bloodlines control the world, the mind of separation thinks it is either true or false, that there is a hidden history going back to Atlantis and Lemuria. And an advanced civilization that thrived before the last before the end of the last ice age. And let's find out if it's true or false. So, you know, take up artifacts, you do archaeology, and you try to prove Which one of you is right. Well, what if there? What if so, there's another way to look at it is that multiple timelines and multiple current realities exist as if in a quantum superposition of states, right? And that whichever one you align with, spiritually, emotionally and intellectually, that's the one that you see more and more of, right, except sometimes, quantum tunneling happens One of these other timelines bursts into our own. And so some some random event that just doesn't fit your narrative it like it happens, like you get some data point. And it's like, whoa, whoa, that is weird. We just got pulled over, or what was the one that was coming to mind? Well, there's like this whole
Sean Morgan 47:33
you could see a UFO or an alien or something that doesn't fit your whole narrative of reality. Right.
Charles Eisenstein 47:42
Yeah, or, you know, the Clinton Foundation was supporting this whatever that was doing human trafficking, you know, or like some little like outburst from another
Sean Morgan 47:53
glitch in the matrix. Yeah.
Charles Eisenstein 47:55
Yeah. So so I think that that when these things happen They're worth paying attention to just like a glitch in the matrix. uncertainties uncomfortable for us, for us humans. And there's a strong tendency when an existing certainty dissolves, to want to rush to another one and not spend the time in between. So, you know, your conventional reality dissolves. And so you leap into a conspiracy theory. Okay. Now I know this was wrong, but this is right. But what if? And I'm not saying like, never believe anything. But I'm asking. And this actually gets back to your earlier question like, asking us to reflect more on why we believe what we believe why we exclude data points that don't fit our narrative. What would happen if we let them all in? Initially, it would intensify the uncertainty. But perhaps in the end, we would at least be able to weave a story that includes all of these data points. I had a conversation with an older relative one time, who was profoundly affected by the Kennedy by john F. Kennedy's assassination. It was like a defining event of his life. And I was like, Look, it wasn't a lone gunman, you know, look. Two weeks before there was an assassination attempt in Chicago by another group, and their car was registered to Lee Harvey Oswald, like, this is this was I laid out a little bit of evidence and he's like, stop. If that if what you're saying is true, that would mean that everything I've believed about politics is false. And I just don't want to go there. Like what would so it's it is it is traumatic, actually.
Sean Morgan 49:59
Oh, it's Super traumatic, I think that's what's happening with humanity is a massive event just like what you just described with someone saying, stop, stop, stop, but they can't stop the information from going past that hand. And it goes in their mind and it has to go in there and storm and create that chaos. And I'm hoping that there are enough compassionate people around, that. They're able to bring them through that, that trauma, through that initiation, as you described it, and on to the other side of, of healing and integrating, integrating all these different realities into their new reality. And in to bring it back to to the Bible because I think that's a story that's so important, where there is kind of a split and timelines and realities for different beings, and it's like a new heaven and a new earth and everything that was old passed away. And so it seems like the people who were righteous experienced a new heaven and a new earth and people who are unrighteous go to another dimension of suffering for justice. Just another way of wording, you know, that kind of end story and the beginning of a new one. So that resonated a lot for me what you said about different timelines and how we can experience different realities.
Charles Eisenstein 51:12
Mm hmm. And so yeah, so you're naming another myth, if you call it a biblical myth that takes a truth and translates it into a story. And what one thing that the Bible does, at least as conventionally understood, is that it translates heaven into something that is an afterlife, and hell into something that has an afterlife, when in fact, I think that these archetypal realms interpenetrate our own lives. Absolutely. And, yeah,
Sean Morgan 51:46
and it is interesting that Jesus said, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. He didn't say it's somewhere else.
Charles Eisenstein 51:52
Right? And in the Gospel of Thomas, which was censored from the Bible, he's much more explicit about that. You Like, if it's if heaven is above, then the birds would be closer than we are, you know, if it's in the ocean, the fish would be closer than we are. It's not. It's all ready here. That was the message. And and yeah, I could go on about that. But,
Sean Morgan 52:14
you know, this brings me to maybe what would be a nice wrap up point, which is that what we've been discussing mostly is how to think and believe about things. And they you said a way of thinking and believing is a state of being. But what about the other side of a way of being is also a way of thinking and believing so that there's a way of being in the world interacting in the world isn't always about thoughts and beliefs. And that if you can kind of orient yourself from that emotional, spiritual, somatic experience of reality, that that will actually construct a new belief thought system that's perhaps a lot less complex and a lot less
Charles Eisenstein 52:57
dominating and everything. beliefs are what we think they are. beliefs are not the same as opinions. opinions are just the most superficial level of belief. beliefs, therefore do not change through a clash of opinions. They change through usually through deeper experiences. And if you do look like you've changed somebody's opinion, that's probably because they were ready to change, not because you overcame them with your intellectual power. And so, beliefs like what are the kinds of experiences like it's much more important than to propagate those kinds of experiences that will shift people's beliefs toward a story of reunion, of healing of inner being. And those are things like acts of generosity, courage, kindness, compassion, humor, all of the things that that say in fact, life is not a war of each against all. In fact, the world isn't so good. In fact, we don't have to be in fear.
Sean Morgan 54:04
In fact, 99% of us just want to love each other and hang out and be cool with each other.
Charles Eisenstein 54:09
Yeah. Right. We're all in this together. That's what humor says. We're in this together.
Sean Morgan 54:15
Ironically, both sides of the information we're using the in it together meme to try to define and control the narrative, but I'm totally with you on the spiritual emotional way of perceiving that it doesn't have to be so so fascist and egotistical of dominating belief and evangelizing kind of thing. So, Charles, do you have any final thoughts? I think I've really appreciated your perspective on all this. And I think it'll help people kind of level up to like just another layer of thinking beyond what they're used to.
Charles Eisenstein 54:54
Yeah, I'm just curious, like, I don't know much about your audience or most people who listened to you are they Like, you know, generally speaking, anti lockdown anti vaccine like that kind of stuff or,
Sean Morgan 55:09
you know, it's really interesting because my channel was started because of I created some kind of beginner simplistic non opinionated observations about Q and on. And so it's like a beginner course and Q and offer people have no idea what it means but didn't necessarily want to get their information from the mainstream media. And so people who are open minded people who are completely new to this and they're not committed to any belief system about and, and so what I find is that when I talk about things like hydroxychloroquine, and lockdown and mass and things like that, they're not combative about it. They're just like, open minded to think about it. That's great.
Charles Eisenstein 55:51
Yeah, because, you know, again, I've got my opinions on these things. But what is going to make this world better. It's not people agreeing with my opinions. It's people doubting their own. Right. And then they might come to my opinions, but they might, I might come to theirs. Like I've really opened myself up to conventional virology and gone down that route, that route route. And I think that it has something to offer. And I'm like, How can this be married to Zack pushes views and Tom Collins views like what's the larger reality like that's that's an inquiry and that said you know sounds just like some philosophical game here. An acquaintance of mine named Pete Evans. He's a chef in Australia, celebrity chef, you know, and he has You know, came out he's on a radio program critical of vaccines and oh my god, like, you know, he got all these hit pieces written about him in the media, you know, which he's a funny guy. He is very, he's got quite a sense of humor. So he posted those to his own Facebook page, you know? And, and, you know, and so of course, it attracts a firestorm in the comments. And among the thousands of comments, there are literally hundreds of stories, like the one that just stuck in my mind. You know, I had a precocious son. He was into everything. We had to have gates all over the house because he was just a one man Wrecking Crew. And we took him for his vaccine at 18 months, and he got a horrible fever that night. And the next day, wouldn't talk wouldn't make eye contact and he never did again. He regressed and he's Guys, like, I'm not an anti vaxxer, I'm an X Factor. And I will never in the medical system, inject my children with anything ever again. And like, you know, when you look at, when you take a statistical view, you know, like the standard medical view, you can be like, well, that's just an anecdote. That's n equals one. You know, people get hysterical when something happens to their kids and so forth. Like, there's a story that can accommodate all of the data. But when you actually read it and talk to those people, it's like, something isn't right here. Yeah. And I want to say like, and this is like the final message I want to give to your listeners is that Yeah, like do embrace radical doubt, critical thinking, question your own biases. And also listen And trust your gut and your heart, which can recognize much better than your mind if there's something not quite right around here.
Sean Morgan 59:11
Right? That's one way to navigate reality, they usually won't let you down. Yeah. And the way I phrase it is just standing up for what you feel and believe is right, you know, in your heart. It's not necessarily like a belief system. It's what you're aligned with as your own personal truth and morality in that moment. And as long as you're not harming anyone else, such that kind of way of navigating reality usually won't let you down. But it's not easy when you have a bunch of people telling you what to do with your life. So you have to stand in your sovereignty, but you don't have to do it in a way. Yeah. And other thinking judges others,
Charles Eisenstein 59:51
you know, like this thing of like, you know, stand up for what's right, speak out, etc. I want to make Anything black and white? Like if I were in Spain in the 14th century? Would I speak out against the Inquisition? If the result were going to be that tortures would torture me in front of my family is being forced to watch? Like, would I actually and then they would i would i do it. Like let's make sure that we are in service to what I call the more beautiful world our hearts know as possible and not in service to being the hero, not in service to to demonstrate to ourselves that we're virtuous and righteous.
Sean Morgan 60:33
Yeah, I'm just what I'm trying to express here is that if people don't do what I'm saying, which is standing up for what is right for themselves, not like evangelizing other and telling other people what to do, but for their own personal sovereignty, that they will end up losing those rights and we collectively as a society will lose them. And that's, that's a scary place to be and going back to the story in psychology of the guy who was the pedophile and was violating the rights of children. And there were other adults around who just let it happen knew what was happening. And they didn't say anything, because of this Spanish Inquisition example. They didn't want anything to happen to them, and their families and their reputation and their source of money. So there is a sacrifice that has to occur. Someone has to do it. Maybe it's not the listener right now. Maybe they have another role to play. I like the role that you're playing, which is you're getting people to do critical thinking. You know, that's, that's part of the role that has to occur. Someone has to do it for this transition, a new story to occur. But I'm a bit concerned for our society that we could slip into losing what what we have now which is pretty precious. The ability to choose what goes into our bodies might my child's you know he's one years old, he never had anything injected in him. It was difficult to stand up to the medical professionals and tell them what I wanted for his body. And when he turns 18 or becomes his own mind, I'm gonna have to let go. And he's gonna have to choose what to do with his own body. And I'm gonna have to respect that. And I think that's really primal and integral to everything that's good and true in the world.
Charles Eisenstein 62:18
Yes. A right to choice. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can say a lot about
Sean Morgan 62:22
that. But, but we're at the end of the show, but we should we should talk again in the future. All right. Great. Thanks so much. Sure. Yeah, thanks, john.
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